Friday, 23 September 2011

Sooner or later........

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy

Gioodnight Vienna, Calling England, posts about the EU wanting to impose their own idea of a justice system and links to an article by Alex Singleton. This is a subject to which I posted here and in reply to a comment Goodnight Vienna writes: "Unfortunately, that means that when the fight comes, as it will, it will be so much bloodier".

Regular readers will know that for some time now I have maintained that the MSM is in the pocket of our politicians because the MSM dare not write or broadcast anything too critical as their access to 'news' would be curtailed; and that likewise the politicians are in the pocket of the MSM because they rely on the MSM to spread their lies and propoganda. Within such a cosy scenario it is virtually impossible for any other party, other than the Lib/Lab/Con, to get their message out as it is never reported in depth. As anyone who studies world events will know such a scenario is the practise of totalitarian regimes and I have to ask what the difference is between those totalitarian regimes and that under which we presently live.

It has also been my contention that, due to the foregoing and the present disinterest of the general public, when change does come - because one day the public will wake up - it will come from a rebellion and whether this rebellion is one of armed insurrection or a 'mass taking to the streets' by the people, matters not - either way it will be messy and blood will be spilt. Arguments are made against this scenario and those making the arguements cite that whilst in the words of Old Holborn "there are 60million of us and only 650 of them", the police and army may be called out to maintain what is termed "law and order". The idea that the police and army would open fire on their own people is one that I believe is ludicrous in the extreme. It is also logical to assume that we don't need 60 million, all it would take is 1/2 million, well organised and sincere individuals to rebel.

To remind readers of an old adage: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

That pudding is in the process of being baked and sooner or later it is going to be taken out of the oven!

Afterthought: There are also those who maintain that the present political elite and their bureaucratic back-up can be brought down by individual awkwardness. That may be true and were one million say to fail to pay their council tax it is accepted that they can hardly imprison that number if those refuseniks did, but they would need to refuse at one and the same time. Coupled with which the authorities would just stagger the cases so that the effect on our prisons was negated. No, the rebellion will come en-masse and it will be bloody!


Bill said...

Agree completely. The numbers require to effect a change are small. I favour acting alone or in small groups of disorganised people which won't present the beast with a clear target.
The danger point arrives if these small groups coalesce into a larger group with a 'leader' who will provide a clear target.

kenomeat said...

I still think revolution is a non-starter in this country. We should really be persuading everyone we know to vote UKIP. The result of a large UKIP vote at the next GE would be the defeat of Cameron and his replacement as Tory leader by a genuine Eurosceptic who would get a Tory Eurosceptic government elected 5 years later. That government (hopefully with the support of a few UKIP MPs) would take us out of the EU. That is the scenario. I know it only addresses some of the issues but it would be a start.

TomTom said...

Parliament and political parties are no longer relevant because Procedure has been by-passed. Brown spent £1 trillion propping up banks WITHOUT any debate in Parliament or vote before or after !

Charles I was executed for trying to tax without Parliament.

The only means is Extra-Parliamentary Opposition - a Movement - without party affiliation. UKIP is simply Disgruntled Tories and as such unattractive to Non-Tories.

Cameron is a disaster and the Conservative Party is crooked and an economic interests group for financial operators. It is a Get-Rich Scheme for looting public assets.

If trains are brought to a standstill by a few people looting copper cable, it is hard to see why a mass movement expressing Opposition to Politicians and Bankers cannot rock the political system as in 1968

TomTom said...

So kenomeat Mon-Tories vote UKIP to get a Tory Government elected.....that seems to narrow its appeal to a subset of Tory Voters

TomTom said...

So kenomeat Non-Tories vote UKIP to get a Tory Government elected.....that seems to narrow its appeal to a subset of Tory Voters....clearly everyone you know is a Tory voter, a group so geographically limited as to make it impossible to win enough seats to form a Government.

You must recognise that Tories are very unappealing to lots of voters, whether Cameron-Osborne or UKIP proxies......there is no chance of a majority with any of the existing parties

PeterCharles said...

"The idea that the police and army would open fire on their own people is one that I believe is ludicrous in the extreme."

Enough of them would I am afraid, even worse the remainder would look the other way rather than confront their own, publicly at least. It does, of course depend on the circumstances but things often escalate despite best intentions. In most cases the use of firearms would only be a response to others' use, however, what do you think would happen if a group of say 500 'protesters' from a large demonstration, say on the scale of the countryside alliance rally, and armed with makeshift staves began battering at the gates to parliament demanding to be heard. What would you say would happen when the 30 or 40 armed police posted to hold the gate found themselves being forced back and the gates started to be dragged down? Do you expect Cameron or Speaker Bercow to come out to address the crowd? Or would you expect to see a dangerous over-reaction? Ask Jean-Charles De Menezes what he thinks, or that completely innocent and inoffensive guy in Pall Mall some years ago dragged out of his car and shot several times.

You have said yourself many times, although not explicitly I don't think, the final refuge of government is repression, not debate. The greatest danger we face is that when people have got angry enough there will be blood and a lot of that is because there is no belief among people that anything they can do will make a difference and because there is no organised opposition to the entrenched political class nor a popular mouthpiece to broadcast popular disgruntlement. It is very much a case of the sleeping dog, prod it and it will ignore you, poke at it and it will growl, keep doing it and it will jump up and bite you and the longer it takes to rouse the greater will be its savagery.

IanPJ said...

"The idea that the police and army would open fire on their own people is one that I believe is ludicrous in the extreme."

It is far from ludicrous. The Common Purpose infested MoD have been hand picking individuals for years, which I wrote about in 2009. They are ready for us to rebel and we ignore their planning at our peril.

kenomeat said...

TomTom: I will try to explain my reasoning. Cameron failed to get a majority because of the UKIP vote. If the UKIP vote is even greater next time then Cameron will lose and will be replaced by a Eurosceptic who will try to claim back the UKIP vote in time for the 2020 election. I'm not too bothered about the non-Tory voters (assuming you mean Labour and LD supporters) as there should be sufficient centre-right voters to win the election. It makes sense to me or am I missing something?

JohnM said...

There is not a hope in hades of any of the main political parties (Lib/Lab/Con/Ukip) taking us out of the EU (not Europe)......there exists considerable doubt as to whether it is possible at all....but expecting those whose only future is the EU, to give the people (who they hold in contempt, and get regarded with same back) any sort of vote on leaving the cosy club of useless-but-still-sponging political unionists is ridiculous.
You don't think the police will fire on the people ?
I do. And they will. As will the army. These are disciplined forces and their personnel will do as ordered. Not for nothing have the people been disarmed.

JohnM said...

Somebody mentioned quantitive easing....
"Brown spent £1 trillion propping up banks WITHOUT any debate in Parliament or vote before or after"
Perhaps people should be reminded that the government is, and has always been, the Lender of Last Resort to the banks.
It is the governments that afford the banks the pleasure of being profligate, since they are literally Too Big To Be Allowed To Fail.
The banking system has been bankrupt for decades now....its lending has far outstripped its ability to repay its customers deposits. If the government had failed in its last resort lending then the banks would have failed. The economy, effectively, would have shut down. Even the few "good" banks would have been under severe strain as their depositors would have attempted to remove their money...which the banks could not have paid.
But don't worry. The banks can claim tax relief on their losses, and on the interest on the loans from the government. Their profits can be moved to another "branch" in a tax-haven, and escape tax here....
Life goes on.

TomTOm said...

. It makes sense to me or am I missing something?.

Yes, you are missing something. You obviously live in Southern England, bedrock of tribal Toryism. In the area between The Wash and Scotland, Conservatives are not quite appealing enough to propagate....and that is why Cameron has no majority of his own.

After 16 months of this corrupt shower, I doubt Conservatives have any hope of increased votes in a region with the biggest cities after London and B'ham.

In short, UKIP can deny the Tories power, but it cannot get enough votes to do anything else but make a LibDem-Labour Coalition feasible

TomTOm said...

Perhaps people should be reminded that the government is, and has always been, the Lender of Last Resort to the banks.

As a Monetary Economist I know that the Bank of England has a lender-of-last-resort function NOT the Government.

However, it was NOT such a function that Brown pursued. It was NATIONALISATION of RBS, Northern Rock, Lloyds TSB, HBOS and in the case of Lloyds TSB forcible by refusing to provide any BofE support unless it merged with HBOS which had secretly received £60,000,000,000 in support UNBEKNOWN to Shareholders of Lloyds or HBOS.

The day after the merger, £60,000,000,000 was repaid SECRETLY to the Bank of England. No word of this in either Prospectus for the merger.

At the same time large payoffs were arranged for Andy HOrnby inter alia. Again secret.

The Special Liquidity to the Banks was £200,000,000,000 NOT £1 TRILLION which was other guarantees on ABN/AMRO debt to Russian billionaires and underwriting Derivatives and Debt held in offshore tax havens and foreigners.

The British taxpayer insured foreign debtors - a highly unusual practice in Central Banking. The USA which has a Central Bank, The Fed, had Congressional Hearings on spending money under TARP

TomTom said...

Somebody mentioned quantitive easing..

You are confused. Quantitative Easing = Debt Monetization. That has NOTHING to do with the £1 TRILLION in guarantees.

QE has simply trebled the Money Supply in the UK since 2008 and has flooded the banks with liquidity which they hoard and impose a credit squeeze on the economy.

The funds are used a) to buy Gilts and expand Government Spending b) speculate on cOmmodities raising prices for wheat, oil, gas, cocoa, etc. This creates food price inflation which cannot be compensated for by pay increases, so living standards fall and tax revenues collapse increasing public borrowing, which requires more liquidity to the Banks to buy more Gilts.

70% Gilts are now stuffed in British portfolios funded by Magic Money created through the banking system which gets an easy return to sustain bonuses.

This is a giant Welfare Programme of Outdoor Relief for Bankers transferring real wealth from Savers and Pension Funds to Banker Bonuses

TomTom said...

These are disciplined forces and their personnel will do as ordered

Didn't at Curragh in 1914. In fact, apart from a police strike in Liverpool in 1919 can anyone list an occasion where the Army has ?

WitteringsfromWitney said...

My thanks to all for their comments and there were some very intersting points made.

First, on the Ukip aspect, I tend to agree with TT in that their appeal is, as yet, not great enough to make a real difference, other than probably resulting in another coalition this time of Lib/Lab making.

I seem to have stirred something with my assertion that the police and army would not open fire on their own people - and yes IanPJ, I well remember the initial article you wrote. What no-one seems to have picked up yet is that to open fire the order would have to be made by a political figure and any politician so doing would be committing political suicide because that would be something that would stir the public into reaction.

That someday there will be a revolution is best explained by PC's last paragraph of his comment. What politicians are doing is in fact seeing how far they can go with the 'control' before they have to stop. Until we have a democracy more akin to that of the Swiss we will always suffer from politicians and the danger of being controlled.

One day the people will wake up and when they do certain individuals will have to decide where they stand.

kenomeat said...

TT and WfW: I don't want to labour the point but my scenario was for 2020, not 2015. I accept that an increased UKIP vote would lead to a left wing victory in 2015 but it would get rid of Cameron and force the Tory leadership into a genuine anti-EU position, ready to win in 2020.
By the way TT, I don't live in the south; I live between the northern industrial towns of Leigh and Warrington which are hardly hotbeds of Conservatism.

Goodnight Vienna said...

Thank you for the link :-) - appreciated.

Dead Dog Bounce said...

There is no question that the army would fire on protestors: how many trials for mutiny do you recall from Northern Ireland?

However, the police are an empty vessel: they require critical mass in terms of numbers to deal with any significant protest, as the riots demonstrated. Quite simply, there aren't enough police, even augmented by the army to deal with the kind of emergent networked behaviour that would accompany serious political discontent.

As I understand it, there is only a single battalion ready now for deployment at any one time. Even if this were massively increased, it would be spread extremely thin across the UK.

I'd expect pre-planned simultaneous "events", preceded for a couple of days by teenage outriders slashing tyres on police vehicles in rush hour. I'd expect use of high-powered water pistols during Winter protests, and caltrops deployed to prevent arrival of police reinforcements. No-one involved would present a legitimate target for live fire.

WitteringsfromWitney said...

k: Whatever, unless Ukip get their act together they wont even manage that by 2025!

GV: Always a pleasure!

DDB: Point taken but 'they' were Irish. England, Scotland and Wales are different - that is 'us'. In any event as I said earlier it would be political suicide for whoever agreed to it. You suggest a guerilla (?) warfare and you probably have sussed how the initial rebellion will begin.......

Dead Dog Bounce said...


Armies only ever shoot at "them". Which is why any significant political discontent needs a working propaganda arm.

It's highly likely that the vanguard of protests will look a lot like EDL demos. Right now, I don't think that there would be a huge amount of concern from the media if live ammo were turned on the EDL.

If I had any initiative, I'd contact Tommy Robinson, and conduct the kind of serious, measured interview with him that Paxman won't. If the caricatures of the EDL continue, good people like you and me may well be shot under cover of an excuse.

Look at the Qana stuff at EU Ref for ideas on how the pros (Hezbollah) organise things.